Webplanner: paths/features/zoom levels
Further to issue https://help.locusmap.eu/topic/36805-lomaps-online-zoom-level-rules-for-peaks , a couple of other issues I find which make the usability awkward:
1/ Some paths appear at zoom 14, but many do not appear until zoom 16. In contrast on other web maps like OSM and brouter etc, all these paths appear at the most at zoom 14. (brouter its 14, OSM its 13). I had a look into it and it appears that the OSM 'ways' which appear in Webplanner at zoom 14 have tags k="highway" v="path", and those at zoom 16 have k="highway" v="footway". However in reality on the ground huge number of footpaths have v="footway" , so not showing them until zoom 16 does not make much sense to me.
Is there some reason for this ? It's another thing which forces a lot of zooming in and out when route planning. Of course the routing engine happily uses all these paths whatever the zoom so why not show them at the same zoom levels ?
For example look at location:
https://web.locusmap.app/en/plan?lat=53.9196024&lng=-2.6143169&z=13&map=hikeBike
and compare with :
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/53.91961/-2.61423&layers=C
Compare the visibility of paths at each zoom level as you zoom in. The problem with the Lomap is the paths do not become visible until you are too close so you can't see where they are going without zooming out - then they disappear.
2/ Features like peaks do not appear until zoom level 14. On most maps these usually appear at the most at zoom 13. Often lower. Is there some reason for this ? It would certainly be better if peaks appeared at the most at zoom 13 .
Again, as above, compare with the OSM map. At zoom 13 the LoMap just shows an empty area - pretty useless really. Strangely it does show the Lopoints at zoom 13 but you have to hover over each point to see what it is. Why not show the caption for it on the map also ?
It would not be good to show everything at 13 as it would become too cluttered but peaks and suchlike major features would be very useful.
Also compare with Lomaps Offline where the peaks appear at zoom 12, and all paths/footways at 13.
The same question
Hi Alan,
Thank you for the detailed testing and description.
at 1)
Paths – We are limited by the data available for rendering the online map. Path features become visible starting from zoom level 14.
Footways – It seems we could display these at lower zoom levels, but there may be a misunderstanding on our part regarding the use of highway=footway. As I understand it, this tag is typically used in urban environments, such as city parks. The OSM Wiki also states, “They tend to be in urban settings.” (source). Because of this, we apply a different style and zoom level to highway=footway compared to highway=path.
Anyway, we’ll review the data and consider whether some adjustments or improvements are possible.
at 2) Again we are limited by data used for rendering. On the other hand the offline lomaps are completely generated by us and for this reason the offline Lomaps displays peak in zoom 13
Thanks
Petr
Hi Alan,
Thank you for the detailed testing and description.
at 1)
Paths – We are limited by the data available for rendering the online map. Path features become visible starting from zoom level 14.
Footways – It seems we could display these at lower zoom levels, but there may be a misunderstanding on our part regarding the use of highway=footway. As I understand it, this tag is typically used in urban environments, such as city parks. The OSM Wiki also states, “They tend to be in urban settings.” (source). Because of this, we apply a different style and zoom level to highway=footway compared to highway=path.
Anyway, we’ll review the data and consider whether some adjustments or improvements are possible.
at 2) Again we are limited by data used for rendering. On the other hand the offline lomaps are completely generated by us and for this reason the offline Lomaps displays peak in zoom 13
Thanks
Petr
Thanks for the response and for looking into it.
Here is another good example of the issue in the UK - https://web.locusmap.app/en/plan?lat=53.3896504&lng=-1.8302536&z=14&map=hikeBike
This is Kinder Scout a very well known walking area in the Uk - if you zoom into level 16 you can see most paths only appear at 16.
I queried this area in overpass and there are 230 ways with highway=footway and 48 with highway=path.
However in other areas I see highway=path used more. So it seems the usage varies a lot even between different regions in the same country.
I also see that 'highway=track,surface=unpaved' does not appear until zoom 15 (perhaps other surfaces too) while paved is at 14. These appear at 13 on OSM maps and 14 on brouter. Similar for other maps. e.g https://web.locusmap.app/en/plan?lat=56.5494420&lng=-4.5640469&map=hikeBike&z=15
I did some searching and it seems there is varying uses of these tags and historically even some disagreement/controversy - e.g. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Path_controversy
In https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway it includes, talking about highway=path, "However, in some countries such as UK, this distinction does not hold and highway=footway can be used for these too."
And this gives a description of the current status: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath
So I think, in this case at least, for rendering , relying on the wiki statements of standards is probably not best because in reality there is disagreement on those and varying usage around the world. For maps aimed at hiking/cycling , I would suggest all paths/tracks should be shown at the same zoom levels - 14 and above which is what most web maps I've looked at do.
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On the zoom=13 point.... this would be more like a 'nice to have', so not a big issue. However out of interest , I don't really understand how the online Lomaps works - I know the tiles are coming from Thunderforest so I expect they could provide the zoom-13 data - so could you explain why it is absent ? e.g. is it technical or commercial or something else ?
Also the Webplanner app already includes the Lopoints for peaks at zoom 13 - it draws the small triangles and the name is available (visible by hover over), so is it not possible to also draw the name alongside the triangle in the overlay ?
Thanks for the response and for looking into it.
Here is another good example of the issue in the UK - https://web.locusmap.app/en/plan?lat=53.3896504&lng=-1.8302536&z=14&map=hikeBike
This is Kinder Scout a very well known walking area in the Uk - if you zoom into level 16 you can see most paths only appear at 16.
I queried this area in overpass and there are 230 ways with highway=footway and 48 with highway=path.
However in other areas I see highway=path used more. So it seems the usage varies a lot even between different regions in the same country.
I also see that 'highway=track,surface=unpaved' does not appear until zoom 15 (perhaps other surfaces too) while paved is at 14. These appear at 13 on OSM maps and 14 on brouter. Similar for other maps. e.g https://web.locusmap.app/en/plan?lat=56.5494420&lng=-4.5640469&map=hikeBike&z=15
I did some searching and it seems there is varying uses of these tags and historically even some disagreement/controversy - e.g. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Path_controversy
In https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway it includes, talking about highway=path, "However, in some countries such as UK, this distinction does not hold and highway=footway can be used for these too."
And this gives a description of the current status: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath
So I think, in this case at least, for rendering , relying on the wiki statements of standards is probably not best because in reality there is disagreement on those and varying usage around the world. For maps aimed at hiking/cycling , I would suggest all paths/tracks should be shown at the same zoom levels - 14 and above which is what most web maps I've looked at do.
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On the zoom=13 point.... this would be more like a 'nice to have', so not a big issue. However out of interest , I don't really understand how the online Lomaps works - I know the tiles are coming from Thunderforest so I expect they could provide the zoom-13 data - so could you explain why it is absent ? e.g. is it technical or commercial or something else ?
Also the Webplanner app already includes the Lopoints for peaks at zoom 13 - it draws the small triangles and the name is available (visible by hover over), so is it not possible to also draw the name alongside the triangle in the overlay ?
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