User defined colors for steepness/gradient in a track
Hi there,
This is a followup ticket of http://help.locusmap.eu/topic/improve-change-of-altitude-track-style-mode
I often want to compare two tracks to find out which of them is steeper/more difficult to ride with the bike, hike, etc.
Currently the track coloring is only relative, so you cannot really compare two tracks.
It would be very helpful to be able to have an absolute palette mapped to levels of steepness. This way one could easily compare two tracks and immediately see which one of them is more difficult.
It would furthermore be helpful to assign colors to particular values like it is done in slope steepness maps for ski touring. E.g. map >45 degrees to red, etc. Not sure if these are two issues though as a gradient is also nice.
See original ticket for the initial discussion.
I like this idea 
I hope you get lots of votes. I gave up using the gradient coloring mode as an accurate indication of track steepness because the track would be mostly green even though (in hindsight or past experience) the track was steep. As you suggest this is because its calculations are relative not absolute. When evaluating a newly created track I currently view the actual gradient chart and zoom in to see 1km sections at a time for steepness. If instead I could set a gradient threshold of (say) 4 degrees, and every part of the track steeper than this was displayed in red, I would get a lot less grief from my riding partner that I have chosen a route that is too hilly.
I hope you get lots of votes. I gave up using the gradient coloring mode as an accurate indication of track steepness because the track would be mostly green even though (in hindsight or past experience) the track was steep. As you suggest this is because its calculations are relative not absolute. When evaluating a newly created track I currently view the actual gradient chart and zoom in to see 1km sections at a time for steepness. If instead I could set a gradient threshold of (say) 4 degrees, and every part of the track steeper than this was displayed in red, I would get a lot less grief from my riding partner that I have chosen a route that is too hilly.
Yeah, same here - it would be very helpful to be able to compare it directly. Shouldn't be too much effort I assume as the gradient analysis and coloring is already there..
Yeah, same here - it would be very helpful to be able to compare it directly. Shouldn't be too much effort I assume as the gradient analysis and coloring is already there..
by default, or, when hiking mode is enabled, it would be helpful to use a fixed coloring gradation to match different avalanche slope levels. Caltopo has 2 modes of fixed coloring for avalanche slope detection.
by default, or, when hiking mode is enabled, it would be helpful to use a fixed coloring gradation to match different avalanche slope levels. Caltopo has 2 modes of fixed coloring for avalanche slope detection.
I would like to push this up again.
Just last weekend, I organized a hike where along the way we had some options. I prepared both of them and showed them to the participants on my tab. To give them a feeling how hard the different options are, I turned on steepness coloring. However, that was useless, because both tracks were red somewhere, even though one was longer and significantly less steep.
Bottom line: Colors based on relative steepness of single track are basically useless.
Menion, what do you think? Is this a question of difficulty or is the demand not high enough yet?
I would like to push this up again.
Just last weekend, I organized a hike where along the way we had some options. I prepared both of them and showed them to the participants on my tab. To give them a feeling how hard the different options are, I turned on steepness coloring. However, that was useless, because both tracks were red somewhere, even though one was longer and significantly less steep.
Bottom line: Colors based on relative steepness of single track are basically useless.
Menion, what do you think? Is this a question of difficulty or is the demand not high enough yet?
Hmm oki, let's move with this little bit ... needs some more help anyway.
1. based on what Taras wrote in second topic, does it make a sense to hardcode range -60% > +60% divided into 20 colored intervals? From what wrote Andrew here, his data will be mostly in range -6% > +6% , so usage of this change equal zero. Is it really possible to create absolute slope coloring without option to define min/max values that satisfy at least 90% of users?
2. for English native speakers ... what is best name for this variable ... slope, gradient, change of elevation?
Thanks for opinions!
Hmm oki, let's move with this little bit ... needs some more help anyway.
1. based on what Taras wrote in second topic, does it make a sense to hardcode range -60% > +60% divided into 20 colored intervals? From what wrote Andrew here, his data will be mostly in range -6% > +6% , so usage of this change equal zero. Is it really possible to create absolute slope coloring without option to define min/max values that satisfy at least 90% of users?
2. for English native speakers ... what is best name for this variable ... slope, gradient, change of elevation?
Thanks for opinions!
"slope" is short and simple. There would be many places already in Locus where other words would need changing to be consistent.
20 "bins" sounds sufficient although I can foresee arguments on the min/ max as you say. Just personally +/-10% would suit me. That would be one bin per 1 percent.
"slope" is short and simple. There would be many places already in Locus where other words would need changing to be consistent.
20 "bins" sounds sufficient although I can foresee arguments on the min/ max as you say. Just personally +/-10% would suit me. That would be one bin per 1 percent.
Perhaps I don't fully understand the issue but why is it necessary to display negative values using a different color?
If the route is displayed on a contour map, you can easily tell if the slope is positive or negative.
"Positive" and "negative" is determined by direction of travel. If you travel out and back along the same route, how will that look like in Locus?!?
In this image from Caltopo, the steepest section (~60%) is displayed in black. Whether you are traveling up or down, it's black.
http://help.locusmap.eu/public/attachments/b25ad80ddbaa08ab037cdd33d4a90a5d.PNG
Perhaps I don't fully understand the issue but why is it necessary to display negative values using a different color?
If the route is displayed on a contour map, you can easily tell if the slope is positive or negative.
"Positive" and "negative" is determined by direction of travel. If you travel out and back along the same route, how will that look like in Locus?!?
In this image from Caltopo, the steepest section (~60%) is displayed in black. Whether you are traveling up or down, it's black.
http://help.locusmap.eu/public/attachments/b25ad80ddbaa08ab037cdd33d4a90a5d.PNG
I strongly disagree. you shouldn't have to display contour lines simply to tell whether slope is up or down. crazy. I want to know when slope is hard climb. not so concerned if there is downhill section. not hard to understand surely?
I strongly disagree. you shouldn't have to display contour lines simply to tell whether slope is up or down. crazy. I want to know when slope is hard climb. not so concerned if there is downhill section. not hard to understand surely?
I guess you do feel strongly about it because this is the first time I've seen you respond so viscerally.
Your scenario explicitly avoids using an existing map feature (contour lines) that reveals the terrain's shape. Instead of taking advantage of it, your proposal promotes working without it. Effectively, it replaces what contours do by doubling the number of "bins" from 10 to 20. However, I don't feel as strongly about it as you do. If everyone prefers hiding contour lines and depicting routes using not ten but twenty colors, OK fine.
The selection of the color palette will be an interesting challenge. Caltopo's 10 colors already use many shades of the primary colors so perhaps negative slope can be depicted using shades of gray? I'll leave it to the proponents of "negative slope" to resolve that issue. I'm just pleased Locus may soon have "absolute slope".
I guess you do feel strongly about it because this is the first time I've seen you respond so viscerally.
Your scenario explicitly avoids using an existing map feature (contour lines) that reveals the terrain's shape. Instead of taking advantage of it, your proposal promotes working without it. Effectively, it replaces what contours do by doubling the number of "bins" from 10 to 20. However, I don't feel as strongly about it as you do. If everyone prefers hiding contour lines and depicting routes using not ten but twenty colors, OK fine.
The selection of the color palette will be an interesting challenge. Caltopo's 10 colors already use many shades of the primary colors so perhaps negative slope can be depicted using shades of gray? I'll leave it to the proponents of "negative slope" to resolve that issue. I'm just pleased Locus may soon have "absolute slope".
I don't see a problem with +-6% vs. +/- 60%: Of course the "bins" would have to be (kinda) logarithmically distributed. What about: 0 - 1% - 2% - 3% - 4% - 5% - 6% - 8% - 10% - 12% - 15% - 20% - 25% - 30% - 40% - 50% - 60%
That's 16 divisions. Above that we could have little skulls ;)
About negative values: I agree with Andrew (although not so viciously) - slope down should be easy to see, even in small scale/preview/etc., where you cannot discern contour lines etc. But I don't think the bins have to be the same. I mean 2% up vs. 4% up makes a big difference on a bike - not so much, however, when it's down. So for negative values, the following brackets would be sufficient, I think:
[-1..-5], [-6..-10], [-11..-15], [-16..-20], [-21..-30], [-31..-40], [-41..-50] [51+]
Perhaps going from green over to turqouise.
Anyway, altogether 24 brackets/bins. Sounds reasonably, doesn't it?
I don't see a problem with +-6% vs. +/- 60%: Of course the "bins" would have to be (kinda) logarithmically distributed. What about: 0 - 1% - 2% - 3% - 4% - 5% - 6% - 8% - 10% - 12% - 15% - 20% - 25% - 30% - 40% - 50% - 60%
That's 16 divisions. Above that we could have little skulls ;)
About negative values: I agree with Andrew (although not so viciously) - slope down should be easy to see, even in small scale/preview/etc., where you cannot discern contour lines etc. But I don't think the bins have to be the same. I mean 2% up vs. 4% up makes a big difference on a bike - not so much, however, when it's down. So for negative values, the following brackets would be sufficient, I think:
[-1..-5], [-6..-10], [-11..-15], [-16..-20], [-21..-30], [-31..-40], [-41..-50] [51+]
Perhaps going from green over to turqouise.
Anyway, altogether 24 brackets/bins. Sounds reasonably, doesn't it?
>viciously
hey c'mon guys, all I said was I strongly disagree. It was polite, respectful, constructive. Sure I use contours, but I just know from months and months of cycle touring experience that when you have a 80km track in a new country, and you are comparing alternatives, zooming in to see sufficient detail for a possible 8..12% slope that may only be a few 100m long is very error prone. Many times I've told my partner "today there are no hard hills" but only to apologize later. I have to get off and push above 12%.. So as you can tell, I'm passionate about this topic. I love the idea of a log scale combined with different binning for up/ down slope.
>viciously
hey c'mon guys, all I said was I strongly disagree. It was polite, respectful, constructive. Sure I use contours, but I just know from months and months of cycle touring experience that when you have a 80km track in a new country, and you are comparing alternatives, zooming in to see sufficient detail for a possible 8..12% slope that may only be a few 100m long is very error prone. Many times I've told my partner "today there are no hard hills" but only to apologize later. I have to get off and push above 12%.. So as you can tell, I'm passionate about this topic. I love the idea of a log scale combined with different binning for up/ down slope.
Good morning guys,
valuable feedback and discussion.
Let's do it as I wrote at start, since -60% to +60% as base values.
Contour lines is something, that may give you extra hint about terrain, but you should not really on them always. In lower zoom levels, they are not perfectly visible + not all maps has them!
Logarithmic range sound good, I'll try to prepare it to next Beta version so we have something specific to discuss about.
Good morning guys,
valuable feedback and discussion.
Let's do it as I wrote at start, since -60% to +60% as base values.
Contour lines is something, that may give you extra hint about terrain, but you should not really on them always. In lower zoom levels, they are not perfectly visible + not all maps has them!
Logarithmic range sound good, I'll try to prepare it to next Beta version so we have something specific to discuss about.
Taras, I'm sorry, I didn't mean no offense. But I also had the feeling you didn't read or didn't understand my proposal about the "logarithmic" steps or bins, as you are still talking about Caltopo's brackets, which I agree don't fit well for different sports.
But Menion already supported my basic idea, so I didn't get why you were still arguing based on a different concept?
Of course, choosing the actual colors is tricky. Probably red has to come around 10%, and then perhaps shades of magenta - violet - black. But I think it can be done.
On 11 August 2017 18:50:07 Locus Map wrote:
Taras, I'm sorry, I didn't mean no offense. But I also had the feeling you didn't read or didn't understand my proposal about the "logarithmic" steps or bins, as you are still talking about Caltopo's brackets, which I agree don't fit well for different sports.
But Menion already supported my basic idea, so I didn't get why you were still arguing based on a different concept?
Of course, choosing the actual colors is tricky. Probably red has to come around 10%, and then perhaps shades of magenta - violet - black. But I think it can be done.
On 11 August 2017 18:50:07 Locus Map wrote:
No worries, Ingo. No offense taken.
Whether the ranges are logarithmic or linear, the color palette issue affects both systems.
I'm not promoting Caltopo's color palette, or its steps, only offering it as an example of an existing system and a starting point for discussion. It's obvious now that if Menion implemented it, it would not satisfy the needs of cyclists. It lacks negative steps, the step-sizes at the lower end are too wide, and the colors at the lower steps are too similar.
PawelS is probably right and there will (ultimately) need to be a choice of palettes. The concept of "what is steep" depends on the activity.
As a hiker, I'm not interested in seeing details below 15 degrees. However, I do want to see information at the higher end because (in the mountains) I expect to encounter slopes in excess of 35 degrees. This is completely opposite to the needs of average cyclists. They have little interest in 35 degree slopes because that's not representative of the terrain they are cycling (perhaps MTB?). Their needs lie at the other end of the spectrum and that's where they want more details, not less.
A single solution, that satisfies both cyclists and hikers, is a difficult goal.
No worries, Ingo. No offense taken.
Whether the ranges are logarithmic or linear, the color palette issue affects both systems.
I'm not promoting Caltopo's color palette, or its steps, only offering it as an example of an existing system and a starting point for discussion. It's obvious now that if Menion implemented it, it would not satisfy the needs of cyclists. It lacks negative steps, the step-sizes at the lower end are too wide, and the colors at the lower steps are too similar.
PawelS is probably right and there will (ultimately) need to be a choice of palettes. The concept of "what is steep" depends on the activity.
As a hiker, I'm not interested in seeing details below 15 degrees. However, I do want to see information at the higher end because (in the mountains) I expect to encounter slopes in excess of 35 degrees. This is completely opposite to the needs of average cyclists. They have little interest in 35 degree slopes because that's not representative of the terrain they are cycling (perhaps MTB?). Their needs lie at the other end of the spectrum and that's where they want more details, not less.
A single solution, that satisfies both cyclists and hikers, is a difficult goal.
Taras - wise words. Locus beta 3.25.1.1 now has existing track mode Slope (Relative) and new Slope (Absolute). However when I compare two maps (below) the new absolute mode (LHS) has slightly compressed the range of colors compared to the old relative mode (RHS). I chose this track because there are plenty of steep sections well above 5..10 degrees, and I was therefore hoping to see lots of red colored track. Instead I actually see less "warning" color. A single solution may never work. What about splitting Slope (Absolute) into Slope (cycle) and Slope (walking)? The terms General/ Cycle/ Walking are possibly more intuitive than Relative/ Absolute.
Taras - wise words. Locus beta 3.25.1.1 now has existing track mode Slope (Relative) and new Slope (Absolute). However when I compare two maps (below) the new absolute mode (LHS) has slightly compressed the range of colors compared to the old relative mode (RHS). I chose this track because there are plenty of steep sections well above 5..10 degrees, and I was therefore hoping to see lots of red colored track. Instead I actually see less "warning" color. A single solution may never work. What about splitting Slope (Absolute) into Slope (cycle) and Slope (walking)? The terms General/ Cycle/ Walking are possibly more intuitive than Relative/ Absolute.
(I hope) Another interesting track comparison below. This track is 200km long with 4000+m ascent - Lots of hills. There is one section with 18% slope. At present the Slope(Abs) shows the steep sections slightly better than Slope(Rel) but the colors are less intense so the benefit is lost. And of course there will be no "one size fits all solution" to this solution. Velomobile riders, touring cyclists, mountain bikers, easy walkers, mountain climbers, gliders(!) will each have different requirement for slope min/max they are most interested to show color variation. Outside this band they are not so concerned. Personally I want to see intense saturated color spectrum, so I can quickly "spot" the steep slope without zooming in to every small part of the planned route.
Below red hand annotation of new Abs mode shows places were coloring is better or worse than Rel mode. In Abs mode there are now lots of very short sections of yellow that in practice/ ideally should be more visible/ pronounced. Where any section has steep and flat slopes, I want the steep slope to take "priority" in the displayed color. At present is appears the green/ flat slope takes priority. The 18% section is at the "W" in Woodbridge (town name text is hidden by track).
(I hope) Another interesting track comparison below. This track is 200km long with 4000+m ascent - Lots of hills. There is one section with 18% slope. At present the Slope(Abs) shows the steep sections slightly better than Slope(Rel) but the colors are less intense so the benefit is lost. And of course there will be no "one size fits all solution" to this solution. Velomobile riders, touring cyclists, mountain bikers, easy walkers, mountain climbers, gliders(!) will each have different requirement for slope min/max they are most interested to show color variation. Outside this band they are not so concerned. Personally I want to see intense saturated color spectrum, so I can quickly "spot" the steep slope without zooming in to every small part of the planned route.
Below red hand annotation of new Abs mode shows places were coloring is better or worse than Rel mode. In Abs mode there are now lots of very short sections of yellow that in practice/ ideally should be more visible/ pronounced. Where any section has steep and flat slopes, I want the steep slope to take "priority" in the displayed color. At present is appears the green/ flat slope takes priority. The 18% section is at the "W" in Woodbridge (town name text is hidden by track).
Andrew, thanks for the hard work of collecting the data and presenting it in a clear fashion.
Clearly, the end-user will need control over the coloring and possibly even the step-size. As a hiker, I'm OK with 10 degree steps but that's far too coarse for cyclists. Conversely, a cyclist's need for narrow step-sizes (at lower angles) is too finely detailed for a hiker.
I suggest allowing the color and step-sizes to the defined in the configuration file. Perhaps, the file could contain two slope-types by default, "Slope - Cycling" and "Slope - Hiking". This should be adequate for most Locus customers. If desired, they could modify the colors and step-sizes to suit their needs. In addition, they should be allowed to copy-paste and create new slope-types like "Slope - Mountain Biking" or "Slope - Skiing".
Obviously, this is more work for Menion but I think it produces a far more useful feature.
Andrew, thanks for the hard work of collecting the data and presenting it in a clear fashion.
Clearly, the end-user will need control over the coloring and possibly even the step-size. As a hiker, I'm OK with 10 degree steps but that's far too coarse for cyclists. Conversely, a cyclist's need for narrow step-sizes (at lower angles) is too finely detailed for a hiker.
I suggest allowing the color and step-sizes to the defined in the configuration file. Perhaps, the file could contain two slope-types by default, "Slope - Cycling" and "Slope - Hiking". This should be adequate for most Locus customers. If desired, they could modify the colors and step-sizes to suit their needs. In addition, they should be allowed to copy-paste and create new slope-types like "Slope - Mountain Biking" or "Slope - Skiing".
Obviously, this is more work for Menion but I think it produces a far more useful feature.
Not too hard. I sort of enjoy it; and the possibility Locus will continue to improve with time. When you have a choice of cycling routes for the day (I generally create user 3 BRouter profiles ==> 3 tracks), and you are basing decision more on steepness than distance, then the accuracy of prediction becomes very important. At present that decision is quite difficult and time consuming. Some days it doesn't matter, other days you regret your decision. When climbing with 25kg of additional gear on the bike, every extra degree, even for a few km up hill, can make a big difference; and harmony with traveling "companion".
I fully agree that to maximize benefit each end-user may want to tailor default settings to their specific requirements. However this conflicts with Locus developer desire to keep the UI as simple as possible for majority. And of course it is totally reasonable to only improve code in areas where maximum number of users will appreciate. I am in the camp that likes to fully optimize their settings.
Even single Slope - Cycling could be big compromise between velomobile/ touring/ BMX. This is where Slope - Relative has some advantage - self tuning - but I gave up on this mode after a few tracks. Very misleading.
Not too hard. I sort of enjoy it; and the possibility Locus will continue to improve with time. When you have a choice of cycling routes for the day (I generally create user 3 BRouter profiles ==> 3 tracks), and you are basing decision more on steepness than distance, then the accuracy of prediction becomes very important. At present that decision is quite difficult and time consuming. Some days it doesn't matter, other days you regret your decision. When climbing with 25kg of additional gear on the bike, every extra degree, even for a few km up hill, can make a big difference; and harmony with traveling "companion".
I fully agree that to maximize benefit each end-user may want to tailor default settings to their specific requirements. However this conflicts with Locus developer desire to keep the UI as simple as possible for majority. And of course it is totally reasonable to only improve code in areas where maximum number of users will appreciate. I am in the camp that likes to fully optimize their settings.
Even single Slope - Cycling could be big compromise between velomobile/ touring/ BMX. This is where Slope - Relative has some advantage - self tuning - but I gave up on this mode after a few tracks. Very misleading.
Well, this is the setting in another track app.
Maybe an idea how to do it..connected to preset?
Well, this is the setting in another track app.
Maybe an idea how to do it..connected to preset?
Hallgeir I like the idea of settings for downhill/ flat/ light/ medium/ hard uphill. You might go one step further and split downhill into light/ hard. I don't see a useful connection with presets. I'd retain existing scheme where each track folder has global slope setttings, and any track can override with own settings if desired.
Instead of current Slope rel/ Slope abs, there could be common predefined profiles say Slope-Auto (relative), Slope-Cycling, Slope-Walking, Slope-Climbing, AND Slope-Custom. For Slope-Custom the user can edit the 6 slope ranges, and specify own color and either slope min or max for each. I don't really care on user defined colors, just as long as they are distinct from each other.
Hallgeir I like the idea of settings for downhill/ flat/ light/ medium/ hard uphill. You might go one step further and split downhill into light/ hard. I don't see a useful connection with presets. I'd retain existing scheme where each track folder has global slope setttings, and any track can override with own settings if desired.
Instead of current Slope rel/ Slope abs, there could be common predefined profiles say Slope-Auto (relative), Slope-Cycling, Slope-Walking, Slope-Climbing, AND Slope-Custom. For Slope-Custom the user can edit the 6 slope ranges, and specify own color and either slope min or max for each. I don't really care on user defined colors, just as long as they are distinct from each other.
Good morning guys,
thanks for a valuable feedback. It mainly confirms that one setup that "fits them all", is not technically and mainly practically possible.
Because of some push here, I hoped for a fast and simple solving of this "idea", but it is not possible.
Because of not-yet-finished tasks related to new Locus Store, Route planner and track editor, I'm leaving this idea for now, till previous will be done, thanks for understanding.
Good morning guys,
thanks for a valuable feedback. It mainly confirms that one setup that "fits them all", is not technically and mainly practically possible.
Because of some push here, I hoped for a fast and simple solving of this "idea", but it is not possible.
Because of not-yet-finished tasks related to new Locus Store, Route planner and track editor, I'm leaving this idea for now, till previous will be done, thanks for understanding.
Nicest use case: To be used as planning tool help. (By Andrew)
As the actual presentation (rel) nor (abs) offers little help.
So prefer free individual setting. Similar to "other app reference" (By Algeir).
As such should also accept the 'logaritmic' setting suggestion. (By Ingo.)
By Presets: Set YOUR personal, so optimal "%slope range" for a(ny) planned activity.
Nicest use case: To be used as planning tool help. (By Andrew)
As the actual presentation (rel) nor (abs) offers little help.
So prefer free individual setting. Similar to "other app reference" (By Algeir).
As such should also accept the 'logaritmic' setting suggestion. (By Ingo.)
By Presets: Set YOUR personal, so optimal "%slope range" for a(ny) planned activity.
I was thinking about it quite a lot and currently best solution I have in head is predefined palettes based on track "activity" parameter. These "activities" are not used too much and this is nice case, where is may be improved. What you think? Every activity may have define own palette that will match most used style. I know, it won't match 100% cases, but most of them should.
List of activities may be also improved if needed. As I see, there is only one activity for "hiking" so it may be for example split into some "hiking" and "alpine hiking" etc...
I was thinking about it quite a lot and currently best solution I have in head is predefined palettes based on track "activity" parameter. These "activities" are not used too much and this is nice case, where is may be improved. What you think? Every activity may have define own palette that will match most used style. I know, it won't match 100% cases, but most of them should.
List of activities may be also improved if needed. As I see, there is only one activity for "hiking" so it may be for example split into some "hiking" and "alpine hiking" etc...
Let it not be said that I don't admit when I was wrong.
Although I don't try out the Betas myself, from what Andrew lays out above, I have to admit that obviously the logarithmic scale alone is not enough to fulfil the needs of bikers and hikers alike (and others). So I totally understand Menion's decision to let it rest for now. As long as he revisits it ;) - as we all agree, it's still an important feature that should be implemented in some way.
Thanx Menion for the effort - and till next time :)
Let it not be said that I don't admit when I was wrong.
Although I don't try out the Betas myself, from what Andrew lays out above, I have to admit that obviously the logarithmic scale alone is not enough to fulfil the needs of bikers and hikers alike (and others). So I totally understand Menion's decision to let it rest for now. As long as he revisits it ;) - as we all agree, it's still an important feature that should be implemented in some way.
Thanx Menion for the effort - and till next time :)
I cannot contribute alot here, just pointing to other methods of routing.
App I refered to is https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pbos.routemap
Menion will do great, I'm sure
I cannot contribute alot here, just pointing to other methods of routing.
App I refered to is https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pbos.routemap
Menion will do great, I'm sure
Slope can be expressed in:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/slope-degrees-gradient-grade-d_1562.html
Based on these definitions, what does Locus Map mean when, in a track's chart, it represents Gradient as percentage? Does it mean "Grade"?
When people say "High 25%" or "% Slope", are you referring to Grade? (A grade of 25% is an angle of ~14 degrees).
Slope can be expressed in:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/slope-degrees-gradient-grade-d_1562.html
Based on these definitions, what does Locus Map mean when, in a track's chart, it represents Gradient as percentage? Does it mean "Grade"?
When people say "High 25%" or "% Slope", are you referring to Grade? (A grade of 25% is an angle of ~14 degrees).
23 votes & 50 comments - lots of interest!
Menion - linking track mode slope color scheme to activity seems like a reasonable compromise. It results in less settings, even no extra settings. Especially with possibility of future additional activities, it could satisfy most users requirements.
At present the color scheme uses a continuous palette, and therefore large number of possible colors. Personally I would prefer for this color mode to use a small set of highly distinct, saturated, easily recognizable colors, with no blurring/ blending of colors at the transition from one slope "band"/"bin" to the next. I like the idea of red, magenta, black being the most steep colors and green being ~0%.
Hallgeir - excellent comparison. Although I prefer the overall Locus "look and feel" (eg. thicker, more visible track), it is clearly evident that the myRouteMap app is showing steep (black/ red) sections that would not have been obvious to the poor Locus user! (especially middle height RHS of map).
Taras - I liked Menion's suggestion to use "slope" because I feel it has more intuitive, more widely understood meaning for all (English speaking) users; also shorter word. It is a non-technical, less "jargony" term. I think Locus is using Gradient%/ Slope% as technically correct Grade.
23 votes & 50 comments - lots of interest!
Menion - linking track mode slope color scheme to activity seems like a reasonable compromise. It results in less settings, even no extra settings. Especially with possibility of future additional activities, it could satisfy most users requirements.
At present the color scheme uses a continuous palette, and therefore large number of possible colors. Personally I would prefer for this color mode to use a small set of highly distinct, saturated, easily recognizable colors, with no blurring/ blending of colors at the transition from one slope "band"/"bin" to the next. I like the idea of red, magenta, black being the most steep colors and green being ~0%.
Hallgeir - excellent comparison. Although I prefer the overall Locus "look and feel" (eg. thicker, more visible track), it is clearly evident that the myRouteMap app is showing steep (black/ red) sections that would not have been obvious to the poor Locus user! (especially middle height RHS of map).
Taras - I liked Menion's suggestion to use "slope" because I feel it has more intuitive, more widely understood meaning for all (English speaking) users; also shorter word. It is a non-technical, less "jargony" term. I think Locus is using Gradient%/ Slope% as technically correct Grade.
@Andrew: Distinct colors by limited fixed colour. +++
(+/- ) A color set as in ski slope indications, and adding some transition colors.
White(snow) <-> Green - Yellow - Blue - Purple - Red <-> Black.
Out of "% Slope Range": White and Black.
Free (= YOUR) personal set "% Slope Range" results in optimal use of the complete color palette/activity.
@ Menion: currently best solution I have in head is predefined palettes based on track "activity" parameter.
I hope predefined includes "advanced" (re)edit mode, so free set "% Slope Range".
Similar solution as offered in Locus standard Preset -> Advanced mode.
Nice theory, but is it worth the effort.
I simulated a test result into Locus.
By the actual (limited) Locus color palette !
As I can't change "% Slope Range" in Locus:
So I manipulated the attribute <ele>
Resulting in more impressing (higher) mountain peaks.
A first result in picture: Using the ABS Locus mode.
@Andrew: Distinct colors by limited fixed colour. +++
(+/- ) A color set as in ski slope indications, and adding some transition colors.
White(snow) <-> Green - Yellow - Blue - Purple - Red <-> Black.
Out of "% Slope Range": White and Black.
Free (= YOUR) personal set "% Slope Range" results in optimal use of the complete color palette/activity.
@ Menion: currently best solution I have in head is predefined palettes based on track "activity" parameter.
I hope predefined includes "advanced" (re)edit mode, so free set "% Slope Range".
Similar solution as offered in Locus standard Preset -> Advanced mode.
Nice theory, but is it worth the effort.
I simulated a test result into Locus.
By the actual (limited) Locus color palette !
As I can't change "% Slope Range" in Locus:
So I manipulated the attribute <ele>
Resulting in more impressing (higher) mountain peaks.
A first result in picture: Using the ABS Locus mode.
Andrew, I imported your cycling track into a competitor's product (Alpinequest) so see how it would appear using its "Dynamic colour" feature. Just like in Locus Map, you can display a track using colors based on Speed, Elevation, Incline, etc. I have no idea if "Incline" is based on a relative or absolute scale.
It handles colors differently from the way it has been discussed here. It displays positive and negative slope using gradient-density colors. In the examples below, I've displayed them using the first color choice (blue=negative, red=positive).
Here's what your track looks like using "Incline". The effect is very subtle and far less pronounced than in Locus Map.
Here's a magnified view and, arguably, continues to be a little too subtle (for my tastes). There's no control over the intensity but the two-color, gradient-density technique is an interesting approach.
In addition to "Incline" there's "Elevation/100m". I'm not sure how it works but it produces this effect which is far more bold and legible:
Anyway, just food for thought.
Andrew, I imported your cycling track into a competitor's product (Alpinequest) so see how it would appear using its "Dynamic colour" feature. Just like in Locus Map, you can display a track using colors based on Speed, Elevation, Incline, etc. I have no idea if "Incline" is based on a relative or absolute scale.
It handles colors differently from the way it has been discussed here. It displays positive and negative slope using gradient-density colors. In the examples below, I've displayed them using the first color choice (blue=negative, red=positive).
Here's what your track looks like using "Incline". The effect is very subtle and far less pronounced than in Locus Map.
Here's a magnified view and, arguably, continues to be a little too subtle (for my tastes). There's no control over the intensity but the two-color, gradient-density technique is an interesting approach.
In addition to "Incline" there's "Elevation/100m". I'm not sure how it works but it produces this effect which is far more bold and legible:
Anyway, just food for thought.
Tracks in above picture examples are shown without (black) bordering by Locus function "Draw outline".
The (easy climb part) 'pale' colors in the (8) palette show improved contrast/visibility by adding a black border.
Do not reject some (8) palette colors as the contrast experience depends on (ever changing) background color.
Color palette suggestions. In favor for the television test picture (8x) palette: (Example linewidth 8 pix.)
Has the correct brightness levels for B/W theme or using "e-ink" screen.
Yotaphone for example..any users here in forum ? No idea about popularity.
Tracks in above picture examples are shown without (black) bordering by Locus function "Draw outline".
The (easy climb part) 'pale' colors in the (8) palette show improved contrast/visibility by adding a black border.
Do not reject some (8) palette colors as the contrast experience depends on (ever changing) background color.
Color palette suggestions. In favor for the television test picture (8x) palette: (Example linewidth 8 pix.)
Has the correct brightness levels for B/W theme or using "e-ink" screen.
Yotaphone for example..any users here in forum ? No idea about popularity.
Taras - the Orux system looks like a nice simpler compromise. Certainly if range were changed from +/-25% to +/-15%. Your visual example more closely matches my physical experience. Your Alpinequest Incline hiking example coloring is still very pale by comparison. I would not want to compromise any color palette just so matching B&W palette. How many users using B&W? Surely a palette optimized for each mode (color/ B&W) would be better?
Taras - the Orux system looks like a nice simpler compromise. Certainly if range were changed from +/-25% to +/-15%. Your visual example more closely matches my physical experience. Your Alpinequest Incline hiking example coloring is still very pale by comparison. I would not want to compromise any color palette just so matching B&W palette. How many users using B&W? Surely a palette optimized for each mode (color/ B&W) would be better?
Andrew, here is the 80km loop displayed in OruxMaps (plus one magnified view). How accurately does it convey the route's steepness to you?
I loaded my hiking example into OruxMaps but the resulting track was too red (suggesting most everything was steep). However, that's understandable because the default +/-25% range is too low for hiking. If I could change it to +/-35%, I'm convinced the track would describe the slopes more accurately.
Andrew, here is the 80km loop displayed in OruxMaps (plus one magnified view). How accurately does it convey the route's steepness to you?
I loaded my hiking example into OruxMaps but the resulting track was too red (suggesting most everything was steep). However, that's understandable because the default +/-25% range is too low for hiking. If I could change it to +/-35%, I'm convinced the track would describe the slopes more accurately.
I would like to add my 2cents to the current state of the discussion:
I personally like the basic idea of having a fixed palette that can be customized by defining the "cut-off" value. However, I would strongly urge to have different values for up and down. Skiing is one example where even 1% up would warrant a deep red (or violet) while down is a wholly different matter, but also for biking it would make sense (I'd rather do a 12% descent than ascent).
I'd also like to bring back the logarithmic idea: Either there could be a checkbox to choose a simple logarithmic scale, or you could define two points (mid-point for orange, high-point for red), through which he actual progression could be calculated along a spline, which in the end leads to something similar to a logarithmic scale.
I would like to add my 2cents to the current state of the discussion:
I personally like the basic idea of having a fixed palette that can be customized by defining the "cut-off" value. However, I would strongly urge to have different values for up and down. Skiing is one example where even 1% up would warrant a deep red (or violet) while down is a wholly different matter, but also for biking it would make sense (I'd rather do a 12% descent than ascent).
I'd also like to bring back the logarithmic idea: Either there could be a checkbox to choose a simple logarithmic scale, or you could define two points (mid-point for orange, high-point for red), through which he actual progression could be calculated along a spline, which in the end leads to something similar to a logarithmic scale.
Should we not add a first simple proposal for Menion now, to start with, and await the usual beta test reports ?
Proposal: Y/N ?
1. For now just use the excisting Locus color palette.
2. By Menion: As he wants to add some general "% Slope" profiles/activity.
3. An activity by "advanced" menu offers free "% Slope Range" setting by boxes "min-max %"
Should we not add a first simple proposal for Menion now, to start with, and await the usual beta test reports ?
Proposal: Y/N ?
1. For now just use the excisting Locus color palette.
2. By Menion: As he wants to add some general "% Slope" profiles/activity.
3. An activity by "advanced" menu offers free "% Slope Range" setting by boxes "min-max %"
After a lot of PM's, and comparing Locus result with other apps, programs.
Keep actual Locus Color Palette, no change, because too much effort for too little (no) gain.
In document: Evolution, no revolution, by (simple) improvement suggestions.
After a lot of PM's, and comparing Locus result with other apps, programs.
Keep actual Locus Color Palette, no change, because too much effort for too little (no) gain.
In document: Evolution, no revolution, by (simple) improvement suggestions.
For interest and comparison, our local government weather service has a new rain radar colour palette clearly designed for distinct (not graded) colors. I think it works quite well. It was quite unreadable on TV weather but now rain intensity is very clear. Only missing green color in middle for ~0% slope.
http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/meteye/?lat=-43&lon=147.1&url=/tas/grove/&name=Grove
For interest and comparison, our local government weather service has a new rain radar colour palette clearly designed for distinct (not graded) colors. I think it works quite well. It was quite unreadable on TV weather but now rain intensity is very clear. Only missing green color in middle for ~0% slope.
http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/meteye/?lat=-43&lon=147.1&url=/tas/grove/&name=Grove
Hi guys,
after two days of work, I finally completely rewrote system for setup of styles for a tracks. Main reason for that change was current idea. So new system is a lot more flexible for me and allows future improvements if needed.
As a first step ( and maybe even last ), I've added option to setup minimal and maximal value for "slope" and "altitude" coloring mode.
So in next Beta ...
Hi guys,
after two days of work, I finally completely rewrote system for setup of styles for a tracks. Main reason for that change was current idea. So new system is a lot more flexible for me and allows future improvements if needed.
As a first step ( and maybe even last ), I've added option to setup minimal and maximal value for "slope" and "altitude" coloring mode.
So in next Beta ...
Am really looking forward to the improvement. But do you ever get some sleep?
Am really looking forward to the improvement. But do you ever get some sleep?
o, good job in v. 3.27 !
;)
o, good job in v. 3.27 !
;)
I'm glad you like it. During my tests last days it approved quite useful and working surprisingly well, so hope not just You, but also others, find this useful.
Thanks Christoph for initial idea.
I'm glad you like it. During my tests last days it approved quite useful and working surprisingly well, so hope not just You, but also others, find this useful.
Thanks Christoph for initial idea.
Also a big thx from me! It's much more helpful than before!
I would just like to ask for a little improvement: For the manual range, would it be possible to add an "Anchor at 0%" checkbox?
Take this is example for slope: You have a non-balanced range (like -30 to 10%), for example for biking, because you'd much rather have a steep descent than ascent. But now a flat section is not green as usual, but already tending to orange. It would be much easier to quickly judge a track if you know that, roughly speaking "blue is down, green is flat, red is up". That checkbox would force green to be at 0%.
Also a big thx from me! It's much more helpful than before!
I would just like to ask for a little improvement: For the manual range, would it be possible to add an "Anchor at 0%" checkbox?
Take this is example for slope: You have a non-balanced range (like -30 to 10%), for example for biking, because you'd much rather have a steep descent than ascent. But now a flat section is not green as usual, but already tending to orange. It would be much easier to quickly judge a track if you know that, roughly speaking "blue is down, green is flat, red is up". That checkbox would force green to be at 0%.
Thanks!
Using only a pattern I think green slope could be too little contrasting with surrounding greens, especially in the summer sunshine. I tried adding a transparent line with an outline, but I got a colourfull line with an outline and black arrows. I think it should be a just colourful pattern with an outline. Generally Loucs can't display a transparent line with an outline only regardless of a mode.
The second issue is that choosing slope increases pattern density covering background nearly completely at zoom 14. If I did not care about the type of road I wouldn't choose a pattern only style. Attracting patterns to local extremes especially at lower zooms (14 and less) would be very useful.
Thanks!
Using only a pattern I think green slope could be too little contrasting with surrounding greens, especially in the summer sunshine. I tried adding a transparent line with an outline, but I got a colourfull line with an outline and black arrows. I think it should be a just colourful pattern with an outline. Generally Loucs can't display a transparent line with an outline only regardless of a mode.
The second issue is that choosing slope increases pattern density covering background nearly completely at zoom 14. If I did not care about the type of road I wouldn't choose a pattern only style. Attracting patterns to local extremes especially at lower zooms (14 and less) would be very useful.
hello, it's emberrassing, but i cant find these settings (locus map pro 3.32.2). it appears to show relative slope-gradients on my side. where can i set to absolute values?thank you very much ^^
hello, it's emberrassing, but i cant find these settings (locus map pro 3.32.2). it appears to show relative slope-gradients on my side. where can i set to absolute values?thank you very much ^^
See coloring mode. In menu select display by slope than tap the pencil -> opens the relative/absolute menu. Best contrast result advise set transparancy 100 % I hope transparancy advise is still correct as I did (do) not use this function. No need as I was only cycling in my flat region ☺ But I do remember I had to set slope range to a lower value as I expected. But than the long tread activity was halted 😊 so I also stopped further discussion. Pffffff... Flat country cyclist...or wind is sometimes the more/most challenging factor 😊
http://docs.locusmap.eu/doku.php?id=manual:user_guide:tracks:management#individual_style
See coloring mode. In menu select display by slope than tap the pencil -> opens the relative/absolute menu. Best contrast result advise set transparancy 100 % I hope transparancy advise is still correct as I did (do) not use this function. No need as I was only cycling in my flat region ☺ But I do remember I had to set slope range to a lower value as I expected. But than the long tread activity was halted 😊 so I also stopped further discussion. Pffffff... Flat country cyclist...or wind is sometimes the more/most challenging factor 😊
http://docs.locusmap.eu/doku.php?id=manual:user_guide:tracks:management#individual_style
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